Why Distance Learning?

Seth Fleischauer (00:01.342)
Hello everyone and welcome to Why Distance Learning, the podcast for educators who are engaged with live virtual learning experiences, whether they be content providers who produce and facilitate or educators who want to complement their curriculum and learn more about the medium. We interview content providers, industry professionals, field experts, and educators who love and use live virtual learning. And today our guest is Jeff Young of the EdSurge Podcast. Welcome, Jeff. Thank you so much for being

Jeff Young (00:27.129)
Yeah, thanks for having

Allyson (00:28.968)
Yay!

Seth Fleischauer (00:29.122)
this is in a, like along as a series of, podcasts that we've done where we depart from what I just read about, people who are like actually engaged in live virtual learning, and kind of extending the definition of distance learning into lots of different things. And as the, the host of my personal favorite educational podcast, guess, excluding my, my podcast, but my personal favorite podcast, I think it's a,

Allyson (00:37.396)
Yes.

Seth Fleischauer (00:57.66)
wonderful opportunity to hear about your reflections on podcasting in general and on the educational industry. So very excited to have you here. Tammy, could you go ahead and introduce Jeff for

Tami Moehring (01:10.222)
I would be happy to. So Jeff Young is an editor, reporter and podcaster focused on covering who gets what opportunities in education and how AI and other technologies are reshaping our world. He is currently an editor and reporter at Ed Search and the producer and host of the weekly Ed Search podcast about the future of learning, as Seth mentioned. He previously spent 20 years at the Chronicle of Higher Education as a reporter and editor.

During that time, he held various roles, including leading technology coverage, editing the students section, and serving as a web editor, helping start blogs, podcasts, and multimedia features. Young has also taught classes and workshops on digital journalism, including serving as an adjunct lecturer at the University of Maryland at College Park for seven years, and as an adjunct in the journalism school at the University of Minnesota. Go Gophers.

Allyson (02:03.986)
Yay!

Tami Moehring (02:04.558)
And he has taught journalism workshops in Turkey and Lebanon. In 2014, he spent a year as a Nieman Fellow at Harvard University, where he also was a fellow at the Berkman Klein Center for Internet and Society. Young has written for our national publications, including the New York Times, USA Today, New Scientist, Slate, and the Wall Street Journal. We are excited to have you here, Jeff.

Allyson (02:26.844)
Yeah!

Seth Fleischauer (02:30.725)
And I want to add one more thing undergrad Princeton University like myself go Tigers Jeff I wanted to start off with a question because I was listening to you guys are Reissuing the bootstrap series, which I think is one of your finest moments. I just I loved learning about the origin of The actual saying pull yourself up by your bootstraps. It was literally supposed to be absurd

Allyson (02:33.29)
Ha ha

Seth Fleischauer (02:56.244)
And then we just kind of adopted it as like a thing that we should be able to do. when I was listening to it, you know, the tagline you talk about, say that Ed Search is a podcast about change in education. And I'm wondering for doing this as long as you have, from your vantage point, how has education changed since you first started covering the industry? I ask this because I have this impression that education doesn't actually change all that much.

that like for all of the new initiatives that get started, all the buzzwords that come around, a lot of those things end up in this little pendulum swing cycle of like we're on, we're off, we're on, we're off. And maybe because of that, or maybe just because everybody has a personal experience with education that they can fall back on that imprinting. It feels like a lot of teachers, when it comes down to making the thousand decisions that you have to make in any given day,

you know, 995 of them that are made unconsciously are done with that imprinting of what education was for you when you went through it 30 plus years ago. So I'm wondering, has education really changed? Does it change? What do you see from your vantage point?

Jeff Young (04:10.723)
No, I actually think that's a great question. I think the interesting part of that is like you, I get to hang out in different circles and my research and reporting. And sometimes it's with the kind of Silicon Valley startup set of where you hear how education never changes. they're just so, you know, what they just need my elevator pitch of this new brand new way to rethink education. And, everyone went through education. we've, everyone's been a

And so people, even if they're not in the education industry, of feel some, you know, some of these startups, people don't have a ton of education experience and they just feel like they're going to rush in anyway. And then all the same time, I get to talk to a lot of professors and teachers and educators at all kinds of positions and levels. you know, I think sometimes they feel misunderstood by people, you know, in the policy.

foundation, funding Silicon Valley realm. And so it's interesting because I think how much change has happened, it kind of depends on who you ask and it depends on what you mean by change. It's also one of those interesting things. Education is unique in that some of these educational institutions have been around longer. They end up outlasting a lot of companies or other institutions in our society.

Allyson (05:31.699)
Mm

Jeff Young (05:36.209)
And so, you know, in some ways there could be saying like there maybe there's some fundamental things that are working. And so, you know, change, I think, is for its own sake, the question of why change. so I think, I think going back to starting at like, what, what are the goals in like, you know, if you want to make education higher quality or more equitable, instead of just being on the change. But I take your question and like, there is, you know, you see the slides at conferences about

You you show a picture from the middle ages and some, you know, woodcut that was the classroom and some monk is asleep in the back and you show a picture from 2024 and it's, you know, somebody sitting in a lecture hall. And yet, so there's some ways in which like we have, there's some things that are very similar, but then there, you really do, I mean, I don't know how much you go to classrooms these days, but there, and online education, right? And distance learning is something that

relatively new still as, you know, at least as in a vibrant form. mean, no correspondence education has been around a while, but, people have tried to do, I mean, the meeting the goal of like, I can't get to a campus, but I still want to learn. solving that problem is a longstanding one. But some of the tools that just in the last, like, it's only been like a few decades since the invention of the internet, that some of the new really like affordable mass attempts

distance learning as we know it now are pretty new and you do see opportunities to serve audiences and students who just really couldn't afford to get the kind of like an education from a university or college that they can do it now. And so that change is worth noting, even if you want to quibble about, could it be better? Could it be more state of the art? Could there be more equitable for sure?

It seems to me like useful to not fall into the traps of like absolutely being like nothing ever changes or it's changed so much, we're good. I think that's the danger. There's dangers in both

Allyson (07:48.11)
Yeah, I agree. feel like in thinking about it, it's more what innovation has been something to inspire a movement within education. And it's kind of the same thing that mirrors in technology is the idea that don't get attached to the trend, get attached to the tool, what's really going to work to achieve the outcome.

Seth Fleischauer (07:49.405)
Yeah.

Allyson (08:12.714)
And it's always fun to think about the ancient past. We've talked about it before where technology was literally like reed, pen and clay. So that was an innovation and continued on. So it's interesting to think about how distance learning especially, but I obviously love it so much. Distance learning especially will be so how exciting it's gonna be to watch it grow in the next 10, 20, 30 years because

The formats, the models that work that aren't just trends can just continue to thrive.

Seth Fleischauer (08:49.01)
Yeah. And I liked to how you talked about, you talked about some of the problems that are being solved, right. And, and thinking about it that way, what's the goal, what, what are we trying to do? and I love that your answer to the question brought in distance learning because it is, it is one of the things that is like drastically changed, since the advent of the internet, the ability to, create access where there was no access before. and I think that another thing to evolve in that time is this actual medium of podcasting. And this is something that you've thought about,

And I'm wondering, what role do you think that podcasting plays in education? Is it just about professional development? Is it about getting these new ideas out there? Why do we do this?

Jeff Young (09:31.761)
No, I love this topic and you regular listeners know I've done several episodes of the Ed Search podcast that touch on this very question of like, you know, for one thing, I don't know if people realize, I mean, maybe your listeners all do, but how many educators make podcasts? I mean, it is a, obviously the world of podcasting is large and enormous and that's a healthy, great thing. But so many educators are the ones putting out their voice

and doing these. And you see like that energy, there's clearly a fit. You know, one person I interviewed said, it's because educators, you know, just like to hear their own voice or talk, but I think it's deeper than that. I think that I think that there's a there's a lot more to it. And I think I think there's a curiosity that is a good fit. And I think that the you know, I think that

Allyson (10:14.026)
Educators are experts.

Tami Moehring (10:15.457)
You

Jeff Young (10:30.337)
is there's so many ways in which it's a different way to communicate that really gets to listeners and people that are consuming it in different ways that, you know, when I write articles at Ed Search and written articles for so many years in my career, and I love doing it, I mean, I still try to get better at it, but the article, it's pretty healthy if I hear on our stats that an article was read for a minute and half, like that's

ding, ding, that's a lot of time spent on the page. Whereas, you you might've put a lot, I put a lot of time into that article, but it's consumed in a heartbeat. And hopefully we can still like make a lot of impact. And I think we can at Ed Search. when I look, you you look at a podcast that lasts half hour, 45 minutes, an hour, you're in someone's, you know, kind of thoughts and really internal dialogue with that someone's listening, they're probably disagreeing.

with any, you me or the guest at any point. They may have be inspired. They may be, you know, nodding their head, but they're reacting and they're, having an internal dialogue with this, with this voice that's literally in their ears. Whether they're at their, they're mostly probably on the go on their phone with their ear, AirPods in. And, you know, maybe they're doing dishes. Maybe they're, I don't know how y 'all do it. That's what I do. Like, you know, you're doing things you've got to get done. You're by yourself and it's there.

Allyson (11:51.74)
Yes! Yes!

Seth Fleischauer (11:56.627)
the dog.

Jeff Young (11:58.211)
So right, the dog walking is a bit, I don't have a dog currently, but you know, it's the same spirit of like, you're interacting. Yeah, it's a task, you do it, and you've got company. And so it's a privilege to be company to people that I don't get to meet in person. And I think educators really get that and they feel like it's a natural fit to reach curious people like themselves and people of all ages that want to keep learning.

Allyson (12:03.156)
This is a task.

Yes.

Jeff Young (12:28.153)
So, and I think, you it's a natural education tool, but I think as far as there's, there's like so many subsets of it is to answer your question. mean, on one level, you can find examples of educators making podcasts. That's a long line of the research specialties, especially in, in, college. But, you know, I think K -12 educators certainly do it too, is like sharing what they figured out. And there's a, you can find so many of those and they really do.

they're able to reach people that they couldn't have reached before. It's kind of in that spirit of distance ahead of like, they can just drop it into the world and it could get found not just by an academic who might have found their argument because it's their job to go look for it, but by somebody who's just really curious for whatever reason about a topic, a discipline, a style of teaching or whatever, and they can go, you know, kind of really

get something that feels authentic, it is, know, authentic voice in the field saying their experiences. And so you can jump right in, in a way that wouldn't have been possible, I think, before podcasts.

Allyson (13:36.702)
think that it's also in the spirit, it's like hearing that it's the spirit of the educator in the way too, that there is this desire to share, share the knowledge that they have, because they know how it is to be in the trenches, if you will. So in a way, I feel like sometimes when I get the content the most from my podcast is when I am doing those tasks, because my brain's already being like, okay, we are getting it together and we're doing this.

And then you're kind of ready to not like challenge the conversation, but you're almost more aware of all of the details that you want to kind of work out in your own mind.

Seth Fleischauer (14:19.462)
Yeah, and I like what you were saying about... Sorry, my cat is here and I'm distracted. trying to like... I'm gonna cut that

Jeff Young (14:32.441)
I'm glad I see visual evidence there. Bye cat.

Allyson (14:33.833)
Yeah.

Seth Fleischauer (14:34.502)
Yeah. Sorry, you were going back to. Yeah, OK, sorry. I got it. OK. What was your question?

Allyson (14:43.882)
So I had a question really quick. Jeff, so as a writer, reporter, which an editor is so exciting, I love all of that and all of the publication so exciting that I read and also listen to your podcast. So it's fun to chat with you. And I wonder, what is your experience acting as an educator?

Is that what inspired you to become, you know, to say, hey, I want to tell the stories of this field?

Jeff Young (15:16.675)
No, it's interesting because when I didn't set out to cover education, even though that's what I've done for my career, I think when I, to date myself, but you already did in the kind bio intro you did, which I appreciate, I've been doing this a while. And when I started out and I graduated from Princeton, the internet was this new thing. And there was a lot of opportunity. I wanted to be a journalist and wanted to get into media. And there was

Allyson (15:21.148)
Okay. Yeah.

Jeff Young (15:45.411)
all these opportunities, because people were like, you must know the internet because you just graduated. It's funny because it's very much like AI is today, if you think about it. You must know this. Certainly, you have an equal playing field because we're all just learning it. And so I really wanted to cover tech and how the internet was changing society. That was my main interest and main focus. And I got this internship with Chronicle of Higher Education. And they...

Allyson (15:48.522)
Yeah.

Jeff Young (16:15.011)
you they were covering technology. And at the time, it's really hard, it's hard to really remind, like for people to really picture how much the college and universities were the incubator for the internet. know, and it was the place where all these experiments, it was the first chance that anyone had to get access to this kind of always connected world digitally.

And so, you know, and then people there were both the professors and the students had access and time to experiment. And so it was an exciting way to cover emerging technology. I got to being able to talk with a lot of really high profile professors and education tech leaders over the years starting off at the Chronicle, because I mean, I've sat down for interviews with Bill Gates, with Steve Jobs.

he passed away, we got an interview when I was at the Chronicle with him. And it was right when he'd come back to Apple after his... And so he was deigned to talk to an education, a small tiny education outlet, but it was an incredible opportunity. so that... I fell in love with education as a world and as a kind of area of... That people

Allyson (17:17.266)
Yeah.

Allyson (17:21.386)
Box.

Jeff Young (17:38.607)
They didn't get as much attention to you, think, back then about how it works and what the issues are and how it's changing. And I just really got interested in that in its own right, in addition to being interested in technology.

Seth Fleischauer (17:50.484)
And so if I can put some of these things together, you're talking about like the opportunity that podcasters have to engage with people in long form communication, right? The difference between reading an Ed Search article for two minutes on the website versus listening for 40 minutes to an episode. There's also this element of like journalism, right? Where you're getting out like new information. You've got the...

researchers who are sharing their information you're covering stuff that is new in education change in education and and so I'm wondering like What is the balance for you in terms of like? education journalism entertainment Right, like how do you? How do you navigate all those because this is something that we think about in distance learning right like we are on a two -dimensional screen

Allyson (18:34.052)
Edutainment.

Seth Fleischauer (18:44.702)
there is something special that we need to do in order to be able to grab the students that is a layer above what a teacher does traditionally in the classroom when they're sharing that three dimensional space with them. The the bar is a little bit higher and for like actually engaging the learner. Right. And so I imagine with podcasting I know with our podcasting we think about this like like what are you doing like what is your your secret sauce what's your recipe for engagement as it

relates to education, journalism,

Jeff Young (19:19.213)
Yeah, I certainly don't have the absolute answer to go take and just solve the... And I feel like I'm trying to learn it myself. I relate to what you're saying about how do we... I can imagine the meetings you're having. I think of looking ahead at what topics to pick and how to do it, to how to make it as engaging as we can and tell stories in ways that were really surprising and delight people. I think for me, it is trying

get, not just take the same, guests and narratives that, that everyone is, is getting on the other podcasts out there. and try to, to find both voices that may not be, getting as much, you know, airtime and, or ask questions of people that are maybe already on the lecture circuit that may be not getting those questions, those more, sometimes more critical, sometimes more just kind

from our lens of looking so much at what teachers are talking about and what educators are thinking about. it's just really thinking in terms of interesting, I'm really interested in the narratives around education, around people's expectations of what is happening in classrooms versus the way it's definitely changing in especially in, as you all know,

and what the experience of teachers and students are like. mean, when I, for instance, during the pandemic, we did a series called Pandemic Campus Diaries, where I was just checking in with these student and a professor on six different campuses around the country. And it was just trying to, having both the student and the professor voice, because they were talking about some of the same challenges and issues, but it was, they had very different perspectives and just trying

I heard from both groups that they really appreciated hearing the other talk candidly about what it's like for them because that wasn't something they had access to. And I think that was a very special case because it was during the pandemic, but I feel like we're all sort of walled off like that even when it's when we're able to be together and the pandemic's over, hopefully, or even when there's not a health crisis, we still, I think, are very siloed as people and very everybody's kind of separated. So there's ways

Allyson (21:34.74)
Mm -hmm.

Jeff Young (21:44.195)
that making sure that we can go out and talk to different voices and try to have these conversations over the period of, in one episode might only have one expert on it, but we also try to go back to topics where we just did recently one on, know, should you ban cell phones at schools? Big issue. And we are going to keep looking into that because it's very important. And one person was saying from their brain, looking at brain science, there's

there's a downside to just banning them among teenagers who are, you know, kind of that could backfire and that you could have more, you know, that might not have meet the goals that you think. And yet then we, another person wrote in and said, well, yes, but I'm an award -winning teacher at this high school. And what I see is students are gonna use their phone and not gonna actually take away their phone forever. They're gonna get the socialization and all the things about a cell phone that they need to be good citizens after they leave school. But like during the school day,

From his perspective, he's saying if they are locked up, I get better concentration. So I think both of those voices in conversation are really worth hearing and helpful, I think, to think through these really tough and challenging policy issues that are not easy.

Allyson (23:02.12)
Yeah, and in your role is really telling the story, being the storyteller for education and all of the narratives. So when you specifically talked about the one series about the pandemic, for me specifically, that resonates a lot with me. was working at a university museum and just being like, why is everyone not loving? Like, hello, this is great. Like, here's some tips and tricks. And I just remember being like, OK, let's take a step back because I'm already in it. And this is really helpful, that idea of perspective.

And sometimes I think you need that person in between that you're being telling that story or having that opportunity for that story to be told in different formats. I also think it's interesting when we think about how podcasting has evolved and how you talked a little bit about, you know, we talked a little bit about how do you get everyone to stay engaged because in the connected but sometimes disconnected world that we live in.

It is interesting because like I fan I was being a fangirl before we connected today because I've read so many different things from you I've listened to your podcast and it's kind of like with online distance learning or live distance learning you see the face so you have to acknowledge you're not YouTube if they see you in person. Yes I am a real person, but there's another level for you. It's

The Wizard of Oz, there's a curtain there. So it's even another level of engagement. So I wonder since you've been doing, especially podcasting, because I remember in college just like listening to podcasts on my, while I was doing like thesis research and still fighting for like Twitter and blog posts to be credible. I wonder how have you evolved your producing or your editing to tell the stories you're telling now?

Like has that changed or has that evolved in any type of way?

Jeff Young (25:00.781)
Yeah, it's interesting. you know, I certainly hope it's getting more, you know, I think one person, I've gotten a lot of good advice, I will say, I want to thank, you know, mentors and teachers that I've had over the years, because that's, that's how it works. Right? I mean, you can keep doing what you do, but having someone kind of tell you, I listen to that, I know a lot. And what about this? So, you know, I've reached out over the years to different people that are in the, that are doing this work as well.

I've gotten some great advice that I hope that I've, that I try to act on that I keep in my head of things like, be a person, don't just, I think there's a tendency for journalism to want to just step back totally and only have the voices of the guests, which in most, in many cases is appropriate. mean, it's not about me, but I do think that the sharing a little bit of yourself and being a little vulnerable about your own.

experience and your relation to the topic you're talking about, it can unlock for listeners and the guest a broader and richer discussion. And so I think I'm hopeful that I bring myself to the podcast a little more than I did a few years ago. And I sometimes those do get a response that when I do that, like I did one on the called the tyranny of letter grades, I think we titled it.

on my own kind of like mixed experience with grades as a student back when I was a student and how I didn't always feel like, you know, I think I do love learning. I know I love learning for learning sake, but I also was really competitive about getting good grades. And I don't think that always served me well as a learner. And so when I'm covering this topic, it's interesting. I think it's worth mentioning that. But I'm also, it makes me just even more curious about people

I know there are also people out there that don't care at all about grades and are thriving and they might be thriving in the system anyway. it's just, everyone's different, but kind of realizing where you start from and sharing some of that can really be helpful, I think. I'm curious, what do you two think on that? Or all three of you.

Seth Fleischauer (27:13.01)
Yeah, it's.

Seth Fleischauer (27:17.3)
What I was thinking was the idea of like how much of myself do I share is a think a question that a lot of teachers ask themselves when they are trying to connect with their students because there is a level that you need to express a level of vulnerability you need to express in order to be able to connect at all.

but there is a line where you've gone too far, right? And so I love that that is a struggle for you as a journalist as well to like know where that line is too, cause you don't want to be fully objective, but you want to, and you want to be able to connect with your audience in a human way. And I think that's great advice. You know, I was also thinking about, you use the word surprise and delight, and I just loved that phrase cause I think about distance learning

You were talking about connecting to people and ideas that people wouldn't otherwise have access to if they didn't have access to your podcast. mean, that's what we're all about in the distance learning world. We're about that access. We are about creating a link between you and someone who's outside your geographic bubble.

And I was thinking about it, is it all about like surprise and delight, right? Like there's something to that. There's something to, like when something is surprising, it's novel, you're gonna remember it. If you just do the same thing every day, then it all blends together. I mean, we remember the pandemic though. Like you can tell me something happened anywhere between 2020 and 2023, and I would believe you that it was somewhere in that range. But when things are novel, right? When they're surprising, they're memorable.

Allyson (28:31.816)
Yes!

Seth Fleischauer (28:59.058)
Right? And that's what learning is about. It's about making it memorable. Right? Tammy, what were you saying?

Tami Moehring (29:02.038)
Hicks.

Tami Moehring (29:06.734)
I was going say exactly, as someone who majored in history at college and enjoyed it in high school, history really is boring when you think about facts or wars or dates, but when you know the people that are involved in there, even if it's the farmer or your family, once you understand those people coming alive, then it connects to you. You realize you could be at that moment, all of that going on. I mean,

put a bunch of people in a room and we call it a reality TV show because we like seeing the dynamic and getting to know people how they interact. That's what makes it memorable, not that they were on a cool island or something. We like the connections or maybe the not so good connections.

Allyson (29:48.681)
you

Seth Fleischauer (29:51.392)
It's the most ancient form of learning, right? Is storytelling, is humans sitting around a fireplace and telling that story. But in terms of the surprise and delight, Jeff, I'm wondering, like, what is the impact that you seek with your podcast? Obviously, you can measure it with downloads and shares and, you know, all those types of metrics.

Tami Moehring (29:56.738)
Yeah, exactly.

Seth Fleischauer (30:17.786)
But going beyond that, like what are you hoping to achieve with this

Jeff Young (30:22.935)
Yeah, no, think it's the right question. It's an interesting, you know, I think there is a way in which we are, the impact that I get the most excited when I see it is when someone writes me and they say they had a podcast club around one of the episodes or a series and they met, and often it's around, you know, a group of teachers or in a workplace that is in the education space. And they, you

we're able to find inside the episodes enough to have a discussion about the big questions that we tackled in that one. that for this, probably the people that are in this group, small group, like listening and talking about it, that's their world of like, they wanna impact. And so I think to me, that really, I get excited when I hear that someone's done that. there's even been, we've seen like public events at universities where they take.

one of our series and use that as a starting point that happened a little bit with our Attention Please series at colleges. We looked at student disengagement recently and I sat in the back of these lecture halls at Texas State University and it was incredible because these professors trusted me to bring me in and let me observe these classes and talk to the students and hear the frank observations and watch students be on their phones during class. But the professors were also kind of trying to

reengage and learn more about what's happening. it was, know, and some of the stuff was working and some wasn't, but it was really, you know, bringing those scenes and experiences and voices to a group of practitioners that could, you know, kind of help them think through their own challenges and facing the same question that that feels like a win.

Seth Fleischauer (32:14.45)
Yeah, absolutely. just recently I met Tammy and Allison in person for the first time at ISTE this past ISTE in June and we did a live podcast recording, which I was inspired by the live podcast recording that you did a couple of years ago. I forget which conference it was at. I was like, okay, it can be like that. It can work. But it was, yeah, but it was amazing having like as a podcaster to get to actually see the people listening to you.

Allyson (32:21.16)
Yay!

Jeff Young (32:32.771)
Cool. Yeah, we've done that. Yeah, we did that. It's great.

Allyson (32:33.246)
Yeah.

Seth Fleischauer (32:42.996)
Right like rather than just like recording and like knowing that it's out there in the world and cool You got an email but like actually like looking at the faces of the people and seeing that impact in real time Was was a trip and was really cool It was definitely one of the the golden moments for me in this podcast and that's a question that we ask people on the podcast is about golden moments typically we're asking about like the medium of distance learning for you though the medium of podcasting like is there is there a time a story that you can recall where you're like wow, this

Jeff Young (32:44.197)
It's unusual.

Seth Fleischauer (33:12.36)
This is exactly what I had envisioned, what I hoped for when I started doing this

Jeff Young (33:19.967)
that's a tough question. Yeah, I mean, for me, it is a privilege to, you know, kind of talk to so many smart people. And for me, I think the it's not maybe one exact moment. Well, I'll name two. One is when I I like to catch people if they're going to be on a book tour and I'm interviewing them about their book, which is I feel like trying and true for a good reason. You know, they've taken the time to write a book.

Allyson (33:44.531)
Yeah.

Jeff Young (33:48.473)
and they've got a lot to say and it's new. But I'd like to catch them early because I don't want to be just getting the canned answers. I'd love to hear their more frank thoughts. And I think when it's working, then you sense that the person that you're interacting with isn't sure even what they think. Like they're working it out as they're talking to you and you and the rest of the audience gets to hear that process. And so you get...

this like bonus information that could never be in an article, right? Cause I can still go write those. That I can't put that in an article. There's no way the format of journalism would, and you wouldn't read it as a reader. It's just, it would just be raw notes. But somehow we'll listen to each other if it's done right. Even when we all know in this, in this Zoom room here that we were all winging it sometimes. And so it's not as polished. And I know for classroom teachers, it's like that too. It's like, it's not all.

Allyson (34:32.234)
You

Jeff Young (34:46.201)
the Ted Talk slick, and yet people will put up with it because you're kind of seeing this authentic thought process and not quite sureness of the person who's the expert and they should know, right? And so I think it brings, those are moments where I'm like, this is why podcasting. And so if I'm not having those in a conversation, need to, I think to myself like, I gotta get this person off their notes, their like spiel because the spiel, they've already said

And I go listen to other people's podcasts before I interview them. if I hear them saying the exact same things they've said to someone else, I'm like, I'm failing the audience because even though it's usually very interesting and I think there's a lot of patience for it, but I think I would love to bring that more raw moment. But I will say one of the best moments that I've had on a very individual personal level is that when I was at Princeton, I had John McPhee's class. And he is one of the reasons that

Allyson (35:32.158)
Mm -hmm.

Seth Fleischauer (35:32.232)
Yeah, that's a surprise.

Jeff Young (35:45.379)
a journalist today, like full stop. Like he just inspired me. will admit that I didn't even know as this public school kid from Georgia, like that these, the world of like long form nonfiction, I was just like, it was somehow I missed it. And so he was this, you know, God of the craft and he was teaching this class that he spent so much time with us in this undergraduate class on how

Craft a nonfiction literary, literary nonfiction was the title of class, I believe. And so he, he really made me kind of like change, like he introduced me to something. He like made me believe that I could do it. And he, you know, was this really guiding force for me. And he, and you know, he, agreed to be on my podcast. And so I was able to thank him and have this interview with him about his book called draft number four, which everyone should read.

Seth Fleischauer (36:35.764)
Hmm. Hmm.

Jeff Young (36:43.055)
about the craft of writing, where he really did distill the best advice he gave us in his class into this book. And it was really important for me to reconnect with him after many, years and thank him and share with him the impact that he

Seth Fleischauer (37:01.268)
Well, I think I have to take the opportunity to say that you're the gold standard of educational podcasts for me. And so I think about the work that you do when I'm thinking about creating content for people. So I have to thank you for taking the time that you do to achieve the level of excellence that you do, because it really does inspire me and I think a lot of people to do.

Jeff Young (37:09.487)
Thanks.

Seth Fleischauer (37:28.03)
I don't want to say similar work because you, again, well, you've got a lot of resources and you've been doing this a long time and it's a little bit of a different format. But yeah, it's incredible work. And I want to end on this last question, which is the title of the podcast. You've done a lot of

Jeff Young (37:41.935)
Thank

Seth Fleischauer (37:50.202)
learning about distance learning. We've talked a little bit about the ways that distance learning is similar to podcasting. Podcasting is a form of distance learning here today. But Jeff Young, why distance learning?

Allyson (38:03.118)
You

Jeff Young (38:04.217)
You know, think the reaching people who kind of can't get to other formats or to be the fill in between when you can and when you can't, like I think that to me is where I've seen and heard the most impact as far as how it can get education to people that literally can't stop their lives to go into a traditional setting.

And so, you I think there are probably a lot of sub answers, but I think that's my broadest, like big picture answer to the question there.

Seth Fleischauer (38:45.672)
Yeah, absolutely. And it's a common one. Well, thank you so much for being here. Tammy, Allison, do you guys have any last thoughts or questions before we

Allyson (38:52.03)
Just thank you so much for spending your time. Also thank you so much for all of the years. I have read all of the publications and all of the podcast episodes that I personally listen to. Really thank you so much because it has really inspired lots of my work as well. I have been one of the people that has cited you.

Jeff Young (39:10.436)
Thank

Allyson (39:11.4)
I also want to say thank you so much for calling out correspondence courses at the very top of this episode because they are some of my favorites. I love that they were on records and written out. So I appreciate that callback too. So, and thanks so much for spending all the time here today and just giving us a chance to learn from you.

Seth Fleischauer (39:17.898)
You

Jeff Young (39:31.428)
Nice to meet you

Tami Moehring (39:31.852)
Yes. Yes. Thank you so much, Jeff. Now I can say I've actually met him when people say, have you listened to that podcast? I can be one of those cool people.

Allyson (39:35.359)
Yes!

Seth Fleischauer (39:40.016)
Bye.

Allyson (39:40.786)
I actually went back and looked at my bibliography, like some of the bibliographies and things. I was like, look. So fun.

Jeff Young (39:51.577)
Nice. No, this is great.

Seth Fleischauer (39:52.914)
Awesome. Well, thank you so much again for being here. For our listeners, if you'd like to check out more of the podcast, you can go to cilc .org slash podcast. If you'd like to help us out, please do tell a friend, leave a rating or review, follow us. Thank you as always to our editor, Lucas Salazar. And if you want to know the answer to the question, why distance learning, check out the people we highlight on this podcast. These are the people who are leveraging this amazing technology to truly transform the learning experience.

Why distance learning? Because it's accessible and it's awesome. See you next

Jeff Young (40:27.993)
Thank you.